This question is addressed to people of trinitarian sects. If Jesus is part of a trinity, why are there so many examples of Him referring to Himself as something distinct from God? Some examples are Him on the cross saying "My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me?" and when He refers to God as greater than Himself when speaking to the twelve prior to being taken into custody. There are more that I've noticed but these two come to mind first. Furthermore, Jesus is repeatedly said to sit at the right hand of the Father. Doesn't the phrase "sit at the right hand" imply that the Son is not equal to the Father? I'm aware of there being counter-examples such as Him saying that He and the Father are one and of course, chapter one of John ("the Word was God"). Admitting these counter-examples support trinitarianism, how do Trinitarians explain the way Jesus speaks of God as if He is something distinct from God? Am I the only one who gets the impression that He speaks in this way? The way I see it right now is that Jesus is the Father's proxy. All authority was given to Him to execute the Father's will. He was created by the Father (I've heard some say that He was "begotten, not made", but He is referred to as Firstborn of Creation) as God's self-expression or image (Col. 1:15). In this sense, He is a functional equivalent to the Father, but in another sense, He is not essentially equivalent because He came from the Father. Is this the same way Trinitarians see it?

The Crucifixion timeline forms a perfect cross on a modern clock when Jewish & Roman times are aligned. This alignment between the Crucifixion Timeline and the Time Clock is a strikingly precise match. **The 3rd Hour (3) → 9:00 AM → Right Side of the Horizontal Beam** According to Mark 15:25, Jesus was crucified at the 3rd hour. When the Crucifixion timeline is aligned onto the 12-hour time clock, the 3rd hour (Jewish time) corresponds to 9:00 AM (Roman time). This places 9:00 AM at the right end of the horizontal beam, aligning it perfectly. **The 6th Hour (6) → 12:00 PM → Top of the Vertical Beam** According to Matthew 27:45, Mark 15:33, and Luke 23:44, darkness fell over the land at the 6th hour (12:00 PM). On the time clock, the 6th hour (Jewish) corresponds to 12:00 PM (Roman). This directly aligns with the top of the vertical beam, reinforcing the divine connection between time and the cross. **The 9th Hour (9) → 3:00 PM → Left Side of the Horizontal Beam** According to Matthew 27:46, Jesus cried out and gave up His spirit at the 9th hour (3:00 PM). On the time clock, the 9th hour (Jewish) corresponds to 3:00 PM (Roman). This places 3:00 PM at the left end of the horizontal beam, again aligning perfectly. A look at the pictorial depiction of the convergence of The Roman and Jewish Timelines: The beams intersect at the clock’s center The convergence of Crucifixion timelines form a perfect Cross: The ultimate symbol of Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Salvation **Significance of This Alignment** The Cross, the Crucifixion Timeline, and the 12-hour Time Clock all merge into one divinely synchronized pattern. This means that the crucifixion was not random, but rather, the sacrifice was preordained in time itself. The alignment of 3, 6, and 9 across the cross and time clock further strengthens the divine trinity of numbers. The Crucifixion follows the 3–6–9 cycle, reinforcing God’s presence in both time and salvation. This convergence of The Roman and Jewish timelines (the 2 nations responsible for the crucifixion), lays the foundation for the proof. ________________ The Holy Trinity: A single God existing as three identical entities. In the concept of The Trinity, Three and One are the same. Trinity of Numbers: A single number existing as three identical entities. » 1 1 1 » 2 2 2 » 3 3 3 » 6 6 6 » 9 9 9 ____________________ I. THE MAGNIFICENCE OF 3 6 9: THE TRINITY OF NUMBERS The Digital Root of any Trinity of Numbers united into an integer is either 3, 6 , or 9. 111 » 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 222 » 2 + 2 + 2 = 6 333 » 3 + 3 + 3 = 9 444 » 4 + 4 + 4 = 12 » 1 + 2 = 3 555 » 5 + 5 + 5 = 15 » 1 + 5 = 6 666 » 6 + 6 + 6 = 18 » 1 + 8 = 9 131313 »13+13+13=39» 3+9 = 12 » 1+2 = 3 141414 » 14 + 14 + 14 = 42 » 4 + 2 =6 151515 » 15 + 15 + 15 = 45 » 4 + 5 = 9 The recurring sequence 3 6 9 is magnificent for its representation of The Truth: THE HOLY TRINITY !!! [![The 3-6-9 digital root cycle]] **Romans 5:6** When The Cross is fixed into a Time Clock, the co-ordinates are 3 6 9 and 12. The Cross is comprised of three entities: 3, 6, 9 - each representing an entity of the Trinity respectively, and a single head that unifies all three (The GodHead\God = 12; 1 Corinthians 11:3). The cross itself, when fixed into a time clock and aligned with the coordinates 3, 6, 9, and 12, symbolizes not only the distinct persons of the Trinity but also the unity of the three in one Godhead. This beautifully tied together the Trinity, the structure of time, and the Godhead. The time clock itself becomes a tool to reveal divine order and structure. The Father + The Son + The Holy Spirit = 3 + 6 + 9 = 18 » 1 + 8 = 9 God = 12 » 1 + 2 = 3 _________ The Father + The Son + The Holy Spirit = 9 God = 3 The Resulting Numbers are 3 & 9 9 is comprised of three 3s. 9 ≡ 3 3 3 i.e. a single God existing as three identical entities. [![Nine in three places: Three, Three, Three]] The Mathematical Unification of the Trinity: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit — represented by 3, 6, and 9 — combine and reveal the Godhead through the process of digital root. The Trinity: Father (3) + Son (6) + Holy Spirit (9) = 18 The digital root of 18 is: 1 + 8 = 9. This shows that when the three persons of the Trinity are united, their sum leads to 9, the digital root. The Godhead (12): This also equates God to 12 (the unifying Godhead, as you’ve pointed out earlier). The digital root of 12 is: 1 + 2 = 3. This shows that God as the unified whole is also represented by 3. Reconciliation of the Two: The sum of the Trinity (3 + 6 + 9) gives 9, and the digital root of God (12) gives 3. This leads to the conclusion that 9 (which represents the sum of the Trinity) equals three 3s (9 ≡ 3 3 3), highlighting the threefold unity of God. Symbolism of the Numbers 3 and 9: 9 ≡ 3 3 3 is a powerful statement, symbolizing the unity and the perfection of God through the Trinity. The three 3s show that God exists as three identical entities (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) united as one, consistent with the biblical revelation of one God in three persons. When all components of The Cross are united to become an ultimate unit by deriving the digital root of sum, the result is: God + The Father + The Son + The Holy Spirit = 3 + 9 = 12 » 1 + 2 = 3[God] God + The Father + The Son + The Holy Spirit = God **THE GOD EQUATION** Three has been united as One. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit exist as distinct yet coequal hypostases within the divine essence, such that their individual distinctions neither augment nor diminish the totality of God’s being, but rather subsist harmoniously within the indivisible unity of the Godhead. The final result of adding all these components (the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and God) together and deriving the digital root is 3 — which is the same as the digital root of God (12 → 1 + 2 = 3). This shows that, no matter how you break it down, God is one. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all unified in God. Their sum reflects the ultimate oneness of God. THE GOD EQUATION beautifully demonstrates the theological truth that the Trinity is one God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct, but when united, they reveal the singular essence of God — represented by 3, the digital root of unity. Symbolism: The fact that the sum of the components leads to 3 symbolizes the perfect unity of the Trinity. This reinforces the concept that, while there are three persons, there is only one God — a deeply meaningful and profound truth in Christian theology. The proof shows how the Trinity is mathematically and symbolically united as one, emphasizing the oneness of God in a beautifully structured way ____________ **3 3 3 vs. 6 6 6: The Divine vs. The Counterfeit** We established that 3 3 3 represents the Holy Trinity — The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit — perfectly united as one God. Now, let’s examine how this contrasts with Revelation 13:18 and Isaiah 14:14. 1. Revelation 13:18 — The Number of the Beast (666) “This calls for wisdom: Let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.” (Revelation 13:18, ESV) 666 represents a counterfeit trinity — a perversion of 3 3 3. Where God’s nature is holy perfection (3 3 3), 6 6 6 is an unholy imitation. How? The Father (3) → Counterfeited by Satan (the ultimate deceiver). The Son (6) → Counterfeited by the Antichrist (a false messiah). The Holy Spirit (9) → Counterfeited by the False Prophet (a deceiving spirit). 666 = the ultimate imperfection, trying but failing to be God. 2. Isaiah 14:14 — Lucifer’s Rebellion “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” (Isaiah 14:14, ESV) Satan’s ambition was to become like God. But instead of 3 3 3 (divine unity), he creates 6 6 6 (a false unity, leading to chaos). The pattern is clear: 3 3 3 = God’s perfect Trinity. 6 6 6 = Satan’s counterfeit trinity, a failed attempt to replace God. The Inversion of 9 (The Holy Spirit) → 6 (The Antichrist) Remember: In The Proof, the Holy Spirit is symbolized by 9. When 9 is inverted, it becomes 6. Luke 1:35 says The Son was conceived by the Holy Spirit. The Antichrist (6) is a perversion of Christ (who originates from 9, the Holy Spirit). Satan twists divine order: 3 3 3 = Holy Trinity → 6 6 6 = Unholy Trinity. 9 (The Holy Spirit) → Inverted to 6 (Antichrist). The Cross (a symbol of salvation) → Inverted Cross (a satanic symbol). ???? Just as the Cross (salvation) can be inverted into an occult symbol, the true divine structure (3 3 3) is inverted into its opposite (6 6 6). The Battle of Divine Order vs. Chaos 3 3 3 represents God’s perfect unity and divine order. 6 6 6 is the ultimate rebellion, a failed imitation of God’s truth. The Ultimate Divine Signature 3 3 3 is the Holy Trinity, the true nature of God. 9 (Three 3s) represents divine completion. 6 6 6 is the counterfeit, a distortion that leads to deception. The universe, scripture, time, and mathematics all align to reveal God’s divine order. ____________________ The Cross (formed by time: Jewish-Roman timelines) + THE GOD EQUATION (expressing divine ontology) = A Unified Proof of the Trinity. The Unbreakable Link: Time + Equation = Proof **A. The Cross Validates the Equation** The crucifixion’s 3–6–9 timeline forms a crucifixion cross on the time clock and manifests the Trinity’s equation in history: The cross-shape is physical evidence that God’s triune nature is embedded in creation. **B. The Equation Explains the Cross** Why did the crucifixion align with 3–6–9? Because: God +The Father + The Son + The Holy Spirit = God It is the 3-6-9 digital root cycle (demonstrated earlier) that enables the culmination of the proof: THE GOD EQUATION. Christ’s sacrifice is the Trinity’s eternal equation unfolding in time. **C. Closed System of Truth** Historical Event (Cross in Time) → Mathematical Law (3–6–9 Cycle) → Theological Reality (God Equation). All three are interdependent: Remove one, and the system collapses. The Three Pillars Interlock Pillar, Role in the Proof, Dependency **Historical (Crucifixion timeline: 3rd, 6th, 9th hours)** Provides the factual anchor: the cross-shape on the clock. Requires the Gospels' accuracy about the hours. **Mathematical (3–6–9 cycle, God Equation)** Reveals the pattern: digital roots and divine arithmetic. Depends on the historical hours to avoid numerology. **Theological (Trinity as 3–6–9)**Supplies the meaning: why the numbers matter. Needs math/history to escape subjectivity. Q:Is this circular reasoning?" A: No - it's convergent evidence: History records the hours. Math reveals their pattern. Theology interprets their meaning. The coherence of all three points to design. Conclusion: The Triune Signature The Cross in Time and the God Equation are not separate proofs - they are two expressions of one reality: At the intersection of time and eternity, the Trinity inscribed its name:  - In history: as a cross.  - In mathematics: as an equation. Both declare: God is. ___________ 1. **On base-10 being “human convention.”** The 3-6-9 cycle is dependent on base-10, but base-10 is not arbitrary. It is grounded in our very biology: human beings universally possess 10 fingers, which became the natural foundation of counting systems across cultures. Far from being an artificial convention, it is a biologically universal standard written into the human form itself. That universality, emerging from our design, is precisely why patterns within base-10 matter. They are not imposed; they arise from the way human beings are structured to engage with number. 2. **On modular arithmetic and “casting out nines.”** Yes, the patterns are mathematically predictable. But predictability does not diminish significance, it enhances it. The 3-6-9 cycle is not a “hidden trick”; it is an intrinsic feature of how base-10 arithmetic expresses balance and repetition. The fact that this cycle exists necessarily, not accidentally, shows we are looking at a structural law of number. When such a mathematical necessity converges with biblical history (the 3rd, 6th, and 9th hours of the crucifixion) and theology (the Triune God), the weight lies not in subjectivity but in convergence across independent domains. **3. On the crucifixion hours as “devotional” not “evidential.”** The evangelists indeed recorded hours historically. Yet the fact remains: those particular hours, 3, 6, and 9, were chosen by history, not by me. If the records had said 2, 5, and 8, there would be no alignment. But they did not. They aligned exactly with the 3-6-9 cycle that mathematics already reveals, and with the Trinity’s triune structure. That is not selective interpretation, it is convergence that no single human planned. **4. On arbitrariness and selectivity.** A proof’s strength lies in independence. What could be called “arbitrary” is in fact the opposite: theology, mathematics, and history developed in isolation, without collusion. Their meeting point at the pattern of three is unplanned, and that is exactly why it is powerful. If one system were constructed to mirror another, we could dismiss it as human design. But because they are independent, convergence becomes the very evidence of higher design. **5. On revelation vs. numerology.** Theology rests on revelation. But why should mathematics, which is itself a universal language of order, not bear witness to the same God who authored Scripture? Revelation is not confined to text; creation itself testifies (Romans 1:20). What I have shown is not a replacement for revelation, but a parallel witness: numbers, history, and doctrine each speak in harmony. 6. The God Equation as perfect representation. Consider the equation: God + The Father + The Son + The Holy Spirit = God At first glance, this seems impossible, addition should increase. But in divine logic, each hypostasis is fully God, and yet their sum is not “three Gods” but one. This paradox is not a human invention; it is mirrored in the 3-6-9 cycle itself: a triune sequence that repeats yet remains one unbroken system. The God Equation crystallizes the Trinity mathematically: plurality without division, unity without collapse. **Conclusion.** The very fact that biology (10 fingers), mathematics (3-6-9 digital roots), history (crucifixion hours), and theology (Trinity) converge on the same triadic pattern, without human orchestration, transforms symbolism into testimony. Do not understate the weight of the convergence. The framework is not just “internally consistent but symbolic.” The point is this: it is not I who created the framework. History (the crucifixion timeline), mathematics (the 3-6-9 cycle), and theology (the Trinity) already existed independently. They converged on their own, across disciplines that are not supposed to “speak” to one another. When all three interlock with such specificity—the very hours of the central event of Christianity forming a perfect cross that aligns with a mathematical cycle mirroring the Triune nature of God, it transcends mere “symbolic synthesis.” This kind of uninvited, cross-domain coherence is exactly what we look for in arguments for design. We don’t dismiss the fine-tuning of the universe’s physical constants because the theory is “elegant”; we recognize that the elegance points to a deeper reality. Therefore, the task is not simply to label this “symbolism” and walk away. The burden is to provide a plausible, naturalistic explanation for why this specific, multi-layered alignment exists at all. Until that is offered, the inference to design remains the only explanation for a pattern that looks less like a metaphor and more like a signature. That is what makes it more than symbolism. If it were only theology, it would be faith. If it were only math, it could be dismissed as numerology. If it were only history, it would remain anecdotal. But when all three interlock, uninvited, it pushes beyond mere metaphor. So yes, coherence is achieved. But coherence across independent domains begins to smell like design. The task is not only to say “symbolism” but to explain why this particular alignment exists at all. The strength lies precisely in the unplanned convergence across independent systems. This is not a numerological curiosity. It is the echo of the same truth, refracted through multiple lenses, all resolving to one: The Triune God. ____________________ SPACE & TIME [![A picture of the solar system]] Design is an inherent and integral component of the solar system. And since design is fundamental to the solar system, its definition must be rooted in design. The IAU'S definition of the solar system makes no provision for this. ​ IAU's definition: >>> Is in orbit around the Sun, >>> has sufficient mass to assume hydrostatic equilibrium (a nearly round shape) >>> has "cleared the neighbourhood" around its orbit. ​ The new, true and improved definition: ✅ Orbits the Sun as its primary gravitational influence. ✅ Is spherical due to self-gravity (hydrostatic equilibrium). ✅ Has a built-in orbital safety mechanism that ensures long-term stability. ​ The gravitational relationship between Pluto and Neptune, where they are in a 3:2 orbital resonance. As you can see, this definition makes room for design by way of mechanism. ​ And when we go by this definition, we establish 9 planets on our solar system, taking us right to our previous and accurate count of 9 planets with Earth as the third (3 & 9) - establishing the intelligent design of the system. _________________ Recall the foundational significance of 3 & 9 in the proof _________________ The Earth is the 3rd of 9 Planets. The Resulting Numbers are 3 & 9. 9 is comprised of three 3s. 9 ≡ 3 3 3 The Triune God is The Creator of the Heavens & the Earth. ______________________________ THE WORD The Bible is comprised of The Old Testament and The New Testament. The Old Testament is comprised of 39 books while The New Testament is comprised of 27 books. The Old Testament : 39 The New Testament : 27 Derive the Digital Roots: 39 » 3 + 9 = 12 » 1 + 2 = 3 27 » 2 + 7 = 9 The Resulting Numbers are 3 & 9 9 is comprised of three 3s. 9 ≡ 3 3 3 ⇛The Bible is a historical book written by Man under the inspiration of God. __________________________ THE FIRST & THE LAST [Revelation 22:13] Man was designed to use the Base 10 Numeral System. [![10 fingers]] Consisting of 10 digits: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 1 is The First or The Beginning Number and The Triune Number 9 is The Highest or The Last. 1---2 3 4 5 6 7 8---9 [3 3 3] ⇛God is The First and He is The Last. ⇛He is The Beginning and He is The End. ⇛He is One and He is a Trinity. ________________________ Abductive reasoning asks: What best explains the evidence? The evidence here is: Crucifixion at 3rd, 6th, 9th hours (Gospel unanimity). These hours form a perfect cross on any 12-interval dial. These numbers follow the 3-6-9 digital root cycle. This cycle mirrors the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Competing hypotheses were implicitly weighed: H1 (Design): A divine mind encoded theological truth in historical and mathematical patterns. H2 (Chance): The alignment is coincidental. H1 is favored because: It offers a unifying explanation. It aligns with the specificity of the data (3-6-9, not 2-5-8). It reflects historical and cultural context (Jewish liturgical hours). This is not confirmation bias—it is inference to the best explanation. ___________ Although there are several segments to this proof, the task should be to explain why this particular alignment between Mathematics, Theology and Time exists at all.

> "Intercession is the act of using your influence to make someone in authority forgive someone else or save them from punishment" - [*Cambridge Dictionary*](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/intercession) . > "Intercession definition: Entreaty in favor of another, especially a prayer or petition to God in behalf of another" - [*YourDictionary*](https://www.yourdictionary.com/intercession) . For an act to be "intercession", the intercessor must believe there is a possibility that the act will cause God to act differently than He would have without the intercession. > "The only thing that makes sense is that Jesus must share in God’s divine nature. If that is not the case, then God has either contradicted himself or changed his mind, and he does neither of those things." - from the article "[*What Does It Mean to Be a Trinitarian?*](https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-mean-to-be-trinitarian.html) " at the Christianity.com website. > "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities; for we know not what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" - Romans 8:26 (KJV) > "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us" - Romans 8:34 (KJV) **Do Trinitarians redefine "intercession"?** I understand that, instead, they could take the Greek words translated "intercession" and translate them differently. Or they could say that God's changing His action because of an intercession does not constitute His changing His mind. *[Entugchano](https://biblehub.com/greek/1793.htm)* One thing I have learned from leading Biblical word studies is, "If you want to discuss *agape*, refer to it as *agape*, not as 'love'". This time it bit me. I forgot the first line of Paul's answer and thought he was discussing "intercession" when apparently he was discussing *[Entugchano](https://biblehub.com/greek/1793.htm)* , instead. - Also see Strongs & similar [here](https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G1793/entugchano.htm) and [here](https://www.billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/entynchano) and [here](https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/entugchano.html)

In the “centuries-old account of the Council of Nicaea: … The whole power of the mysterious dogma is at once established by the one word homoousios … with one pronouncement the Church identified a term (homoousios) that secured its … beliefs against heresy. ... Such older accounts are deeply mistaken ” (LA, 11) “What is conventionally regarded as the key-word in the Creed homoousion, falls completely out of the controversy very shortly after the Council of Nicaea and is not heard of for over twenty years.” (Hanson Lecture ) “For nearly twenty years after Nicaea nobody mentions homoousios, not even Athanasius. This may be because it was much less significant than either later historians of the ancient Church or modern scholars thought that it was.” (RH, 170) “During the years 326–50 the term homoousios is rarely if ever mentioned.” (LA, 431) “After Nicaea homoousios is not mentioned again in truly contemporary sources for two decades. … It was not seen as that useful or important.” (LA, 96) “During the years 325–42 neither Arius nor the particular technical terminology used at Nicaea were at the heart of theological controversy.” (LA, 100) The word homoousios appears only once in Athanasius’ the Orations. This is understood as “evidence of Athanasius’ lack of commitment to Nicaea's terminology at this stage of his career.” (LA, 115) “Athanasius' decision to make Nicaea and homoousios central to his theology has its origins in the shifting climate of the 350s and the structure of emerging Homoian theology.” (LA, 144) > LA = Lewis Ayres Nicaea and its legacy, 2004 Ayres is a Professor of > Catholic and Historical Theology at Durham University in the United > Kingdom. > > RH = Bishop R.P.C. Hanson The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God > – The Arian Controversy 318-381, 1987 Question: Why was the term homoousios not part of the controversy during the 25 years from 325-350 and when and why did this change, so that it is today regarded as the key term in the Nicene Creed?

This question may seem strange, but I believe it is valid. It is commonly understood that God cannot create logical contradictions, such as a square circle, or make 1+1=3. However, it seems that the trinity itself is a logical contradiction being three distinct persons but still only one God. Why can God not create logical contradictions when his own nature is a logical contradiction? I am a trinitarian, but I am unsure of how to answer this question.

I previously posted the question: > I understand the word theos may be translated as "God" or as "god." > Bible writers added words (the, true, only, or one) to indicate the > Almighty. For example, in prayer, Jesus described the Father as **the > only true theos** (John 17:3). The Nicene Creed describes the Father > as "one theos" and the Son as "true theos from true theos." Is there > anything in the Greek of this phrase to indicate whether this should > read "God" or "god?" But the moderator closed the question and indicated: > Add details and clarify the problem you’re solving. So, let me try to explain why I ask such a question: The ancient Greek word theos is the standard word used by the Greeks for their gods, the pantheon. The modern English word “God” has a very different meaning, for it is used only for one Being, namely the Ultimate Reality; the Almighty. Since no other word was available, the New Testament writers used the same word theos for the God of the Bible. When the context indicates that it refers to the Ultimate Reality, it is translated as “God.” But the New Testament also uses theos for other beings, such as Satan and even certain humans. In such instances, it is translated as “god.” (e.g., 1 Cor 8:5-6) The Nicene Creed refers to Jesus as theos in the phrase “theos from theos.” On the assumption of the Trinity doctrine, in which the Son is God Almighty, this is translated as “God from God.” However, **the authors of the 325 Nicene Creed did not think of the Son as God Almighty**. This is indicated by the following: 1. The Creed itself makes a distinction between the “one God, the Father almighty” and “one Lord, Jesus Christ.” 2. Most of the delegates to the council were followers of Origen Frend WHC (The Rise of Christianity) (<a href="/redirect?url=https%3A%2F%2Frevelationbyjesuschrist.com%2Ferickson%2F" class="external-link" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener">Millard J. Erickson <i class="fas fa-external-link-alt fa-xs"></i></a>), and Origen, like all pre-Nicene Fathers, regarded the Son as subordinate to the Father (<a href="/redirect?url=https%3A%2F%2Frevelationbyjesuschrist.com%2Fhanson%2F%23origen" class="external-link" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener">Hanson <i class="fas fa-external-link-alt fa-xs"></i></a>). They did refer to Jesus as theos because they <a href="/redirect?url=https%3A%2F%2Frevelationbyjesuschrist.com%2Fhanson%2F%23divine" class="external-link" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener">did regard Him as divine <i class="fas fa-external-link-alt fa-xs"></i></a> but, in their theology, there were <a href="/redirect?url=https%3A%2F%2Frevelationbyjesuschrist.com%2Fhanson%2F%23theos" class="external-link" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener">many different types and grades of deity <i class="fas fa-external-link-alt fa-xs"></i></a>. 3. The concept or phrase “theos from theos” was used by pre-Nicene fathers (Irenaeus - Proof of the Apostolic Preaching 47, Tertullian <a href="/redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccel.org%2Fccel%2Fschaff%2Fanf03.v.ix.xiii.html" class="external-link" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener">Against Praxeas 13 <i class="fas fa-external-link-alt fa-xs"></i></a>), but they regarded the Son as subordinate to the Father. 4. Later Arian Creeds also referred to Christ as theos from theos. For example, the Creed of Sirmium , in the year 358, refers to the Son as “God from God, light from light.” However, that creed presents the Son as subordinate to the Father. As a defense against the indications in the Bible that the Son is subordinate to the Father, the Council of Chalcedon stated that the Son, during His incarnation, had two natures: a divine and a human nature. Therefore, that council argues, when He said that He is subordinate to the Father, He was speaking from His human nature. However, the 'two natures' proposal only deals with indications of subordination while the Son was on earth in the form of a man. There are also many indications that the Son is subordinate to the Father BEFORE His incarnation and AFTER His resurrection and ascension. To defend against such indications of subordination, Trinitarians argue that the three ontologically equal Persons have a voluntary arrangement amongst themselves – a division of duties, so to speak - in which the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father. However, an eternal voluntary arrangement between three ontologically equal Persons, in which the Son is subordinated to the Father, remains real subordination. (Kevin Giles ) Conclusion and Question -------- Therefore, when Irenaeus said that “the Father is God and the Son is God” (Proof of the Apostolic Preaching 47), I understand that Irenaeus simply meant that both the Father and the Son are immortal beings with supernatural powers. And, therefore, when Irenaeus added that “that which is begotten of God is God,” he simply meant that, since the Father is an immortal being with supernatural powers, and since Jesus Christ is the only begotten of God, He is also an immortal being with supernatural powers. So, the question remains, on the basis of the conclusion that the Nicene Council regarded the Son as subordinate to the Father, how should "theos from theos" in the Nicene Creed be translated? This may be compared to the following quote from Irenaeus: > There is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of > all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption. (IV, Preface). This quote classifies the Father, the Son, and believers under the category theos, showing the general meaning of the word theos. How should theos in this quote be translated?

>Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them - Hebrews 7:25 (KJV) How do Trinitarians who believe that the distinct persons of the Trinity share one will, explain how Jesus is making intercession with God? (A previous answer here on Christianity.SE stated that some Trinitarians believe that the Trinity share a single will, while others believe each has a separate but identical will.) I apologize. I thank you all for your answers. But my question wasn't clear enough, so your answers didn't provide the information I am seeking. So I am re-asking my question .

Encounters with God (the Father) are called *Theophanies*, encounters with Jesus are called *Christophanies*, but what about encounters with the Holy Spirit? Is there a specific term for an encounter with the third person of the Trinity? **Note**: by encounter, I mean any sort of self-authenticating experience through which a supernatural being makes its existence or presence known, obvious and clear (i.e. reveals itself) to a person. _____ Related: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/q/86291/50422

Philippians 2:6 is "Ὃς ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ" "Hos en morphe theou hyparchon ouch harpagmon hegesato to einai isa theo" In his talk Philippians 2: Jesus is not God , Dr. Tom Gaston says (~3 min. mark) > "Had Paul meant to say that Jesus was God, or was a god, he would have > had a very simple way of doing so. That's not a difficult thing to say > in Greek. So the fact that he doesn't use those words makes it very > unlikely that that's what he means." If St. Paul had wanted to say Jesus was God at Philippians 2:6 straightforwardly, he could have said so. Instead, he adds the word 'form', as in 'form of God'. Similarly, as Gaston continues > "Also, had Paul meant to be talking about Jesus' *nature* - saying > that Jesus had the nature of God - again, he would have used other > words. Look at this passage from Galatians 4:8, where Paul talks about > the nature of gods. [...] He uses the Greek word 'phusis' for > 'nature', and again, when you look at that verse for 2 Peter 1:4, it > talks about participating in the divine nature, and again the Greek > word used is 'phusis'. **So had Paul wanted to say Jesus had divine > nature, there are other words he could have used to say that. Instead, > what Paul says is that Jesus was in the form of God. The word he uses > is 'morphe', which is most commonly used in reference to *outward* > appearance, rather than essence or being** [as is done at Mark 16:12]." Why, according to Trinitarians who believe Philippians 2:6 is saying Jesus was God, did Paul add the word 'form' ('morphe')?

> 11“I, only I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me. The OT especially has a strong emphasis on there being only one God, Yahweh, and there are only a few scattered and cryptic references to God even having a Son. Trinitarian doctrine tries to solve this problem at least by stating that God is one Being, but represented by three Persons. Non-trinitarians challenge this saying that God and the Son are distinct beings. They would say that Jesus is subordinate to the Father and yet this passage seems to be saying that there is no Savior apart from the Father. The Word of God is manifested plainly in the New Testament, where Jesus seems to be distinct from the Father. But what do non-trinitarians do hermeneutically with passages in the OT like this one that seem to deny the separate existence of the Word? Why would Yahweh say there is no other Savior, whether person or being, knowing that he would be sending his Son to be the Savior of the world? Anyone should feel free to answer the question regardless of their beliefs about the trinity. Here is the verse in its immediate context. > 10“You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I > have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I > am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after > Me. 11“I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me. > 12“It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was > no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, > “And I am God. 13“Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who > can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”

John 18:37 > “‘So you are a king?’ Jesus said, ‘You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.’” John 14:6 > “Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” John 15:26 > “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.” John 1:18 > “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.” If Jesus declares that He came into the world to bear witness to the truth (John 18:37), and also affirms that He Himself is the truth (John 14:6), how does this personal testimony reveal the intrinsic relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the Trinitarian concept—where the Son not only communicates truth but is the very Truth proceeding from the Father and manifested in the Spirit?

In Luke 2:26 the text states that Simeon would not see death before he had seen τὸν χριστὸν κυρίου (‘the Christ of the Lord’). How can Trinitarian theology reconcile the genitive construction — ‘of the Lord’ — which implies belonging or being sent, without diminishing Christ’s ontological equality with the very Kyrios? (Lk. 2:26 BGT) > καὶ ἦν αὐτῷ κεχρηματισμένον ὑπὸ τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ ἁγίου μὴ ἰδεῖν θάνατον πρὶν [ἢ] ἂν ἴδῃ τὸν **χριστὸν κυρίου**. Luke 2:26 (KJV) > “And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.”

In the traditional account of the Arian Controversy, Arius caused the Controversy by developing a new heresy, opposing established orthodoxy, and by gaining many followers. The term "Arianism," by itself, implies that it is something developed by Arius: > Britannica defines Arianism as: “A heresy **first proposed by Arius** of > Alexandria that affirmed that Christ is not divine but a created > being.” > > Arianism is “a heresy of the Christian Church, **started by Arius** ... > who taught that the Son is not equivalent to the Father (όμοούστος = > consubstantialis), thereby provoking a serious schism in the Christian > Church” (Jewish Encyclopedia ). (Note that this quote explains "equivalent" as "same substance" (homoousios).) > > “Athanasius' account begins by presenting Arius as **the originator of a > new heresy**” (Ayres, p. 107). In other words, Arianism is something that Arius developed. He developed a new theology or heresy, which caused the Controversy because many people accepted it. However, Archbishop Rowan Williams, in a recent book on Arius, described him as a conservative, meaning that he defended the tradition, which would mean that he did not develop a new theology: > “Arius was a committed theological conservative; more specifically, a > conservative Alexandrian” (Williams, 175). > > “A great deal of recent work seeking to understand Arian spirituality > has, not surprisingly, helped to demolish the notion of Arius and his > supporters as deliberate radicals, attacking a time-honoured > tradition” (Williams, 21). > > “In Alexandria he (Arius) represented … a conservative theology” > (Williams, 233). Other authors added: > “Arius … represents a school … and the school was to some extent > independent of him. Arianism did not look back on him later with > respect and awe as its founder” (Hanson, 97). > > “Arius too, far from being an original thinker, was simply one more > adherent of the dyohypostatic (two hypostases) tradition” (Lienhard ). > > “My second theological trajectory is the one in which we locate Arius > himself. This loose alliance I will term ‘Eusebian’. When I use this > term I mean to designate any who would have found common ground with > either of Arius' most prominent supporters, Eusebius of Nicomedia or > Eusebius of Caesarea” (Ayres, p. 52). One comment is that those two things can be true at the same time. How would that be possible? Arius either developed a new theology or he did not. If he were a conservative Alexandrian, he was defending the traditional Alexandrian theology. Ken Graham says: "Would be better to quote Christian definitions rather than those of non-christian sources." Ken, if you knew anything about this subject, you would have known that the guys I quote are the world experts in the field, and they are all Catholics in good and regular standing. The problem is that people do not want to accept the revised account of the Arian Controversy: > “The study of the Arian problem over the last hundred years has been > like a long-distance gun trying to hit a target. The first sighting > shots are very wide of the mark, but gradually the shells fall nearer > and nearer. The diatribes of Gwatkin and of Harnack (published around > the year 1900) can today be completely ignored” (Hanson, p. 95-96). Dottard commented: > Arius initiated the new teaching that was rejected by the council of > Nicaea. The "controversy" arose because many recognized his teaching as > different from that of the NT which Nicaea was called to resolve. (It > did so because it essentially tried to meld Greek philosophy with > Biblical teaching which has always been a disaster. Dottard, you start by saying that Arius developed a new teaching. That is exactly what the experts are saying is not true.

**Premise** 1Cor 8:6 KJV > But to us there is but one **God, the Father**, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1Tim 1:17 >Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, **the only God**, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. Romans 15:6 NASB >so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the **God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ**. Ephesians 4:6 KJV >One **God and Father** of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 2 Timothy 1:3 >I thank **God**, whom I serve with a pure conscience, **as my forefathers did**, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day, **Question** ***Who do Trinitarians understand Paul's God to be?***

**Hebrews 1:6** (NIV) says: > when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” My question is for Trinitarians, Modalists and Binitarians: ***Why was it necessary for God to give the command to his already perfectly loyal Angels to worship the second person or mode of the Godhead, whom** (one would assume) **they already always included in their worship?*** Quotes from Creeds or scholars of the different views, making sense out of this, are welcome.

A similar question has been asked here , but no details have been asked other than how Trinitarians interpret this verse. The top answer of the linked question talks about the Son being "eternally begotten" by the Father, and the Son *proceeding from the Father* (something I have not found in any of the Chalcedonian Creeds). My question is less about the Son's origin, but about the Father and the Son **sharing the same divine essence**. Thus, here is a more detailed question for this bible passage. Let me quote it first in its immediate context: > 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and > believeth on him that sent me, hath **everlasting life**, and shall not > come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. > > 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, > when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that > hear shall **live**. > > 26 *For* as **the Father hath life in himself**; so hath he ***given*** to the Son > to have life in himself; > > **John 5:24-26** (*KJV - emphasis mine*) **How is it that in light of John 5:26, the Father has "*everlasting life*" in Himself that has to be GIVEN (greek: edoken - other translations also say GRANTED) to the Son, so that the Son has that life in himself?** The type of life being talked about in John 5:26 is "everlasting life" (verse 24). So God the Father has this eternal life in Himself **inherently**, because he has no beginning and thus must have it inherently in Himself, otherwise He would not have been able to live for eternity past. Nobody gave the Father this life - he inherently has it in Himself! The Athanasian Creed says: > "The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And > yet they are not three eternals; but **one eternal**. So likewise the > Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty... > The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is > of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy > Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor > begotten; but proceeding... > And in this Trinity **none is before, or after another**; none is > greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are > **coeternal**, and **coequal**." It is hence clear that, according to the Chalcedonian Creeds, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit share the same essence of being, the same nature. In order to be an eternal living being (past, present and future), as God Almighty is, you have to have life in yourself, **always**. If you have to be GIVEN or GRANTED that life, it means you didn't have it. Life itself (being alive) is an inherent part of the nature of a living being! According to Philipp Schaff who analyzed the works of St. Augustin , John 5:26 is explained as follows in the light of the Trinity: > For it is not, as with the creature so with the Son of God before the > incarnation and before He took upon Him our flesh, the Only-begotten > by whom all things were made; that He is one thing, and has another: > but He is in such way as to be what He has. And this is said more > plainly, if any one is fit to receive it, in that place where He says: > “For as the Father hath life in Himself, so hath He given to the Son > to have life in Himself.”[John 5:26] For He did not give to Him, > already existing and not having life, that He should have life in > Himself; inasmuch as, in that He is, He is life. Therefore “He gave to > the Son to have life in Himself” means, He begat the Son to be > unchangeable life, which is life eternal" Put in simpler terms: God the Father gave the Son life in Himself, which is life eternal. It means that the Son is eternal life, because what he has been given is what he became - it has become part of his essence! God the Father is the cause and the source of life. All Christian denominations I know of, that believe in the creation by God agree to this. **How can it be maintained that Jesus shares the same divine essence with the Father, but had to be GIVEN "everlasting life" that was never given to the Father, who apparently inherently had it in Himself, whereas it had to be GRANTED/GIVEN to Jesus (the Son)?** The act of the Father having granted and/or given (greek: ἔδωκεν ) Jesus eternal life in Himself, is an act that has temporal implications - *in the 68 occurrences of this form of the verb "edoken" in the Aorist Indicative Active , which expresses the simple occurrence of an action in past time, none appear atemporal/eternal* - which means that there was a point in time where Jesus did NOT have this type of life in Himself, which would mean that he does not share exactly the same essence with God. **How do Trinitarians explain this apparent contradiction?**

There is a [question about praying to Jesus](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/62358/what-is-the-biblical-basis-for-praying-to-jesus-as-opposed-to-praying-to-god-in) already, but I noticed there is no question about praying to the Holy Spirit. What is the biblical basis for praying to the third person of the trinity?

In Philippians 2:6–7 (ESV), Paul writes of Christ: >*“Though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.”* Some interpret this "emptying" (Greek: kenóō) to mean that Christ temporarily gave up or set aside His divine attributes, and became fully human in appearance and function. Others argue that He remained fully divine while also taking on full humanity — the doctrine of the hypostatic union. Does this passage support the idea that Jesus ceased to operate in divine nature during His earthly life, or is it describing something else (e.g., a voluntary humility or servant posture)? How do major theological traditions (e.g., Chalcedonian Christianity, kenotic theology) interpret this “emptying”?

I was finishing up a read through of the Hebrew Bible when I came across this gem: Zechariah 14:6-9 (NASB) > On that day there will be no light; the luminaries will die out. 7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at the time of evening there will be light. 8 And on that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. > > 9 And the Lord will be King over all the earth; on that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one. This passage posses a logical contradiction for those that would assert that Jesus is LORD (YHWH). First, in v7 it says that this unique day is known to the LORD, to YHWH. Yet Christ himself makes it clear that he himself does not know when this day is, nor anyone else, but only the Father knows it. Matthew 24:36 (NASB) > “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Furthermore, in v9 it says that God alone will be King over all the earth; there won't be any other kings. Paul tells us that in the end, Christ himself will subjected to the Father - ie, there is an end to Christ's reign as king. 1 Corinthians 15:26-28 (NASB) > The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is clear that this excludes the Father who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. This is consistent with what the prophets said concerning the throne of David. Psalm 89:29 (NASB) > So I will establish his descendants forever, And his throne as the days of heaven. Isaiah 65:17 (NASB) > “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. So then, since Christ neither knows the day which is known to the LORD, to YHWH, and since his reign will end when God creates the new heavens and the new earth, then logically Christ cannot be YHWH. Rather, the only one who can be identified as YHWH given these restrictions is the Father. -------- **QUESTION**: How do Trinitarians address these two major conflicts? How can Christ be said to be YHWH when he does not know the day nor the hour when YHWH does know it? And if Christ's reign on the throne of David ends with the new creation, reversing the sin of Israel when they demanded a human king, then how can Christ be YHWH who is King over all - and at the end, the only king ?

In trying to understand various trinitarians theologians like Karl Rahner/Karl Barth, the concept of "subsisting" often comes up. I'm really not sure what to make of it, initially I imagined it means (because of the "sub" prefix) what is the substance something is made of, or more likely a quality of an entity that exists within. But I'm really trying to wrap my head around what's the difference between saying: 1. There's one God who subsists in three persons 2. There are three persons who subsist in one God. Does the first affirm that there really is only one God, as in one person, who inside lives as three? And then the second to mean that there really are three distinct persons, but who inside live as one? Because my trinitarian theology is more western, I'd appreciate (and I've tagged this question) for Catholics and Protestants – as, again, that's what I'd wish for – but Eastern-Orthodox are also welcomed to respond as long as they keep my background in mind.