One of the many important areas of disagreement between Catholicism and Protestantism is how the two understand the intercession of the saints. Both groups agree that saints in heaven may pray to God on behalf of the Church on earth. However, Catholics believe that it is appropriate for Christians alive on earth now to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us, whereas Protestants do not think so. In defense of their view, Catholics often cite 2nd Maccabees 12:39-46, which reads in the *New American Bible:* > 39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs. 40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. 42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin. I don't see what the connection is. I would think that people on earth praying for the deceased is the opposite of people on earth praying to saints in heaven. In the former case, it is *our* prayers which are meant to be helpful to *them*. In the latter, it is *their* prayers which are meant to help *us*. Furthermore, in the former case there is no communication between the living and the dead, quite unlike the idea of directing prayers towards people in heaven. (And that is a very important detail, as that is the point of divergence between Catholic and Protestant regarding the Intercession of the Saints.) The footnote in the 2012 *New American Bible* also makes no reference to prayers to the saints on these verses: > This is the earliest statement of the doctrine that prayers (v. 42) and sacrifices (v.43) for the dead are efficacious. Judas probably intended his purification offering to ward off punishment from the living. The author, however, uses the story to demonstrate belief in the resurrection of the just (7:9, 14, 23, 36), and in the possibility of expiation for the sins of otherwise good people who have died. This belief is similar to, but not quite the same as, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. So basically, I do not see how the practice of praying *to* people in Heaven is similar to praying *on behalf of* people in Purgatory. **I would like some clarification on the purported connection between the two concepts.**

One of the key differences between Catholicism and Protestantism is the practice of prayer to saints in heaven, which encouraged in Catholicism but absent in Protestantism. My question is, **according to Catholic teaching, when did this practice begin?** I can find many resources from Catholic sources arguing that it ancient Christians prayed to the saints, pushing the beginning back at least to the late 1st or early 2nd century. How much older they believe "at least" means is not clear. For instance, this article at Catholic Answers has a lengthy collection of quotes from the Fathers, the earliest of which cited is Shephard of Hermas. However, it doesn't say when this practice actually began. They give a Biblical argument for its legitimacy, but nowhere claim that any of the Biblical figures *actually did* pray to deceased saints in heaven. So, I can think of several possibilities for the origin that are consistent with that: * It was first practiced by the early church shortly after the Apostles. * It was first practiced by the Apostles after the ascension of Christ, as an inference from his teachings and revelation from the Holy Spirit. * It was explicitly affirmed by Jesus to the Apostles while he was on the earth. * It was already practiced prior to the Incarnation. The last of these is the most interesting. If it's a pre-Incarnation practice, how far back does it go? Might Noah have prayed to Seth, for instance? Or is it an intertestamental development? Or somewhere in between? *Please note I am **not** asking about any of the following:* 1. Critical perspectives on the origin of prayers to saints. (I want a Catholic perspective.) 2. The idea that the saints in heaven pray for people still on Earth. (That's something Protestants generally accept; the point of difference is whether *we* should invoke *them*, not whether they're praying for us.) 3. The theological foundations of the intercession of the saints. (I want to know when it began to *actually be practiced by the Church,* not when it could have been theoretically valid.) 4. Anything related to prayers to angels. (I'm specifically asking about prayer to human beings in heaven.) 5. Prayers on behalf of the deceased, such as 2nd Maccabees 12:42-46. (There's a significant difference between praying *to* and praying *for* the deceased—in the former case the living are communicating directly with the dead while in the latter they are not.)

I'm not sure how to express the relationship that Catholics have with the Virgin Mary, so please excuse the word "faith" in the question title. **Giving Mary praise** I understand that Mary gave birth to Jesus. But, isn't Jesus God in human form? He is the Alpha and the Omega. He chose Mary to give birth to his human body, right? So if Mary was chosen by God, and we know that Mary is incapable of doing anything on her own, why give her so much praise? Is she not just another servant like the rest of us? **Intercession** When one asks the virgin Mary to intercede for us, I'm confused. Isn't that the role of Jesus, that the curtain to the Holy room was torn because Jesus is now our intercessor between us and God? We may now go directly to Jesus, so why have Mary do this for you? I am seeking the Catholic viewpoint on this.

The Hail Mary is [very often called a 'prayer'.](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/q/995/6071) Some Catholics like to distinguish between 'praying', which is only said to God, and 'asking' which is acceptable for the deceased saints. So is the Hail Mary a prayer (even though it's offered to Mary) or something else? Answers from any perspective which uses the Hail Mary would be welcome.

It's well known that Protestants reject the doctrine of Intercession of Saints. According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints#Protestant_views) : > With the exception of a few early Protestant churches, most modern Protestant churches strongly reject the intercession of the dead for the living, but they are in favor of the intercession of the living for the living according to Romans 15:30. When it comes to arguing for the rejection of the doctrine of Intercession of Saints (specifically, the intercession of *the dead for the living*), what are the strongest apologetic arguments according to Protestants? Are there compelling reasons that should be able to dissuade any rational believer from seeking intercession support from departed Saints? *Note: the counterpart question can be found at [What are the strongest apologetic arguments in defense of the veracity of the doctrine of Intercession of Saints?](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/84039/what-are-the-strongest-apologetic-arguments-in-defense-of-the-veracity-of-the-do)*

I have counted over 200 prayers by believers (though not being thorough in Psalms) but find none addressed to anyone else in Heaven but God, or exhortations to do so. While support for this is attempted via appeals such as exhortations to pray for each other, and elders and angels offering incense before the climatic judgments on earth, and to tradition, yet I am looking for prayers in the Bible actually addressed, formally or implicitly, to created beings in Heaven, or instructions to do so like as "our Father who art in Heaven."

While researching for [this answer](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/32544/how-does-the-bible-teach-us-to-direct-our-prayers/32588#32588) , I came across [this quesion](http://www.gotquestions.org/pray-Father-Son-Spirit.html) . In its answer it stated: > Roman Catholics are taught to pray to Mary and various saints. Such > prayers are not scriptural and are, in fact, an insult to our heavenly > Father. The question is, what is the Scriptural basis for Catholics praying to Mary and the various saints? Please note that [What is the basis for the solicitation of prayers from dead saints?](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/767/what-is-the-basis-for-the-solicitation-of-prayers-from-dead-saints) is seeking **'how'** these prayers originated - and categorically states *'it does not intend to get answers why these prayers are acceptable'* - while this question is seeking the scriptural basis of these prayers, i.e. **'why'** are they acceptable from scripture? Please note that the acceptable answer will be one that does not just rattle off scriptural verses, but also demonstrates an understanding of the Catholic practice in light of scripture. The answer should also address: *'Roman Catholics are taught to pray **to** Mary and various saints.'*

Protestants reject the Catholic and Orthodox practice of asking deceased saints to pray for them, and I think there are two main reasons why they reject it: it is communicating with the dead, and it is dishonouring to Jesus. The first has been dealt with in many other questions, but I'd like to focus on the second one to see how valid an argument it is. So the second major reasons why protestants don't ask the deceased to pray for them is that they believe they need no other mediator than Jesus. For protestants, asking anyone other than Jesus to intercede with God for them is dishonouring to Jesus! But Protestant Christians have no hesitation at all in asking *living* Christians to pray for them. Why does the argument against dead Christians not apply to living Christians? If you ask your Christian brother or sister to pray for you, why is that not seeking another mediator than Jesus? The Bible clearly instructs us to pray for others, and it frequently show that early Christians asked other Christians to pray for them (ex. in Paul's letters), but does it ever instruct us to ask others to pray for us?

In Luke 16:22-24 we read > The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to > Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where > he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus > by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and > send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, > because I am in agony in this fire.’ in which Jesus supports the notion that people go to Heaven or Hell soon after their death, what is reinforced in Luke 23:43 > And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in > Paradise.” Then the Apostles Creed of the Catholic Church says > He descended into hell; on the third day He rose again from the dead; > He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the > Father Almighty; from there He will come to judge the living and the > dead. Which suggests, on the contrary, that the judgment and destiny of the dead is pending until the second coming, which also contradicts the promise of “being in Paradise on the same day,” since Jesus spent the next three days in Hell. But the Catholic Church routinely invokes the intercession of saints in its prayers, starting with Mary herself Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. So, if the dead are already in Heaven or Hell, it means that they have already been judged, so who are left to be resurrected and judged? When are the dead judged?

**Matthew 27**: > **46** And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? > **47** Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. During our Lord's crucifixion, people thought he was praying to Elijah. Nobody asks "what is this man doing? Prayer is only to God!". As some have commented, we do not know the faces of the people when they said that. They might have been horrified. Or they might not. That made me think: was it common and accepted to pray to Elijah during Jesus' times? If so, did they pray to other people and angels as well? Thank you very much!

Do Lutherans believe in any type of intercession of the saints? Calvin believed that a general intercession of the saints was possible, but also that one could not ask for intercession from a specific saint. In this regard, do Lutherans believe in intercession like Catholics, or only in the intercession of living saints/general intercession? Preferably, I would like answers with sources from the words of Luther or from Lutheran books, **but only if possible.** Thank you!

I understand that the Catholic Church direct some prayers to Mary, the Mother of Jesus. For me it would be strange to address my prayers to anyone outside the Holy Trinity. Do Catholics pray to any other individuals other than God? Is praying 'to' individuals other than God widely practiced in any other denomination? If so, who do they pray to and why?

What happens to the fruits of the Mass applied to a particular soul who is no longer in purgatory?

How do Catholics decide which saints to pray to? I am somewhat familiar with the concept of patron saints; my understanding is that Catholics are encouraged to pray to particular saints based on their location, occupation, or activities. The categories seem to be quite broad, however, so one person would have several patron saints. For example, Maximilian Kolbe is the patron saint of, among other groups, amateur radio operators. I am an amateur radio operator; if I were Catholic, would I pray to Kolbe only for prayers related to amateur radio, or could I pray to him for anything, because I am an amateur radio operator? If the former, what would the qualifications be for a prayer to be related to amateur radio? If I'm falling from a ham radio antenna tower and praying for protection, would that qualify?

I’m not sure how many traditions see him this way but I know it is the case for Roman Catholics, especially Irish ones.

Angels have powers inherent to their nature. So why can't we just ask an angel to use his power to help us, instead of asking the angel to pray for us while we wait for God to grant the request? If it's not a sin here on Earth to ask a doctor to heal me, instead of asking him to pray to God to heal me, why can't I do something similar with an angel?

From the perspective of Catholicism, are there or have there been any Protestant saints? Is this something possible at least in principle? Theoretically speaking, could a Protestant attain the status of a saint in the eyes of God, according to Catholicism? If the answer is yes, then can a Catholic pray to a deceased Protestant saint to ask for their intercession? ____ Related but not a duplicate: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/q/92917/50422

The concept of Mediatrix has Virgin Mary in a role of a mediator in the salvation process—at least that's what Wikipedia says: > Mediatrix in Roman Catholic Mariology refers to the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary as a mediator in the salvation process. From my admittedly biased point of view, this seems to clash with Paul's writing about Jesus being the only mediator between man and God. > [**1 Timothy 2:5-6 (ESV)**](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1tim%202:5-6&version=ESV) > 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. > What is the Catholic teaching about the Mediatrix concept? How is this passage interpreted? Do all Mariologists take this passage into account?

The earliest known prayer to St. Mary is called Beneath Thy Protection (Sub tuum praesidium), and it is commonly dated around mid third century (~250 AD), or as late as fourth century. From the Wikipedia link are four translations. This is the one taken from the Greek: > Beneath your compassion, > We take refuge, O Theotokos [God-bearer]: > do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: > but rescue us from dangers, > only pure, only blessed one. What do Protestant Churches make of this fact? How do they explain the early apparition of the prayer?

A [recent answer on this site](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/57306/21576) says that "People have always prayed to Mary as a chief intercessor on their behalf." Such a statement will surely seem excessive to Protestants, who would normally characterize the idea of Mary interceding for the living as a (negative) development that took place centuries after Christ. I doubt that debate will get resolved here, but it still makes me wonder – **what is the earliest known instance of a *petition* directed to Mary?** I am looking for a clear statement where Mary is the actual target of a petition, not that she is tangentially referenced in association with a petition. I'm *not* looking for statements of praise directed at Mary. Checking quickly in Everett Ferguson's *Church History*, I found the following, which may prove useful as a starting point for answers: > Mary was invoked in prayer among Greek speakers in the third or fourth century, but the first Latin hymn involving an address to Mary is from the fifth century. (16.2.C) Notice however that this quote lacks two things that I'm looking for in answers – it doesn't specify that the prayers were *petitions*, and it doesn't state the documents in which these prayers were recorded. ---- We have a similar question, [When is the first documented case of Christians praying to the dead saints?](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/q/36947/21576) However it does not specifically address the question of prayer to *Mary*, and though Mary is mentioned several times in [one answer](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/37310/21576) , she is only praised, never petitioned, in the prayers quoted there (such as from the [Liturgy of St. James](http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.xii.ii.html)) .