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Among Marian-centered groups, is there any movement to separate from the Church or fear of excommunication?
[*Mater Populi fidelis* - Doctrinal Note on Some Marian Titles Regarding Mary’s Cooperation in the Work of Salvation (4 November 2025)](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_ddf_doc_20251104_mater-populi-fidelis_en.html#_Toc201667039) This publication addresses the pro...
[*Mater Populi fidelis* - Doctrinal Note on Some Marian Titles Regarding Mary’s Cooperation in the Work of Salvation (4 November 2025)](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_ddf_doc_20251104_mater-populi-fidelis_en.html#_Toc201667039) This publication addresses the problem of excessive and inappropriate "Marian devotion". > … there are some **Marian reflection groups**, publications, new devotions, and even requests for Marian dogmas that do not share the same characteristics as popular devotion. > Rather, they ultimately propose a **particular dogmatic development** and express themselves intensely through social media, often **sowing confusion** among ordinary members of the faithful. > Sometimes these initiatives even **involve reinterpretations of expressions** that were used in the past with a variety of meanings. > This document considers such proposals to indicate how some respond to a genuine Marian devotion inspired by the Gospel, and how others **should be avoided since they do not foster a proper contemplation of the harmony of the Christian message as a whole**. Misuse of the titles "Co-redemptrix" and "Mediatrix" is specifically addressed: > *Co-redemptrix* > > 18. Some Popes have used the title “Co-redemptrix” without elaborating much on its meaning. > Generally, they have presented the title in two specific ways: in reference to Mary’s divine motherhood (insofar as she, as Mother, made possible the Redemption that Christ accomplished) or in reference to her union with Christ at the redemptive Cross. > **The Second Vatican Council refrained from using the title for dogmatic, pastoral, and ecumenical reasons.** … > > 19. In the Feria IV meeting on 21 February 1996, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was the Prefect of the then Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, was asked whether the request from the movement Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici to define a dogma declaring Mary as the **“Co-redemptrix”** or **“Mediatrix of All Graces”** was acceptable. > In his personal votum, he replied: “**Negative.** > The precise meaning of these titles is not clear, and the doctrine contained in them is not mature. > A defined doctrine of divine faith belongs to the Depositum Fidei — that is, to the divine revelation conveyed in Scripture and the apostolic tradition. > However, **it is not clear how the doctrine expressed in these titles is present in Scripture and the apostolic tradition.**” > Later, in 2002, he publicly voiced his opinion against the use of the title: “**the formula ‘Co-redemptrix’ departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings…** > Everything comes from Him [Christ], as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything that she is through Him. > **The word ‘Co-redemptrix’ would obscure this origin.**” > While Cardinal Ratzinger did not deny that there may have been good intentions and valuable aspects in the proposal to use this title, he maintained that they were “being expressed in the wrong way.” > > 21. On at least three occasions, Pope Francis expressed his clear opposition to using the title “Co-redemptrix,” arguing that **Mary “never wished to appropriate anything of her Son for herself. > She never presented herself as a co-Savior. > No, a disciple.”** > Christ’s redemptive work was perfect and needs no addition; therefore, > “Our Lady did not want to take away any title from Jesus… > **She did not ask for herself to be a quasi-redeemer or a co-redeemer: no.** > There is only one Redeemer, and this title cannot be duplicated.” > **Christ “is the only Redeemer; there are no co-redeemers with Christ.”** > For “the sacrifice of the Cross, offered in a spirit of love and obedience, presents the most abundant and infinite satisfaction.” > While we are able to extend its effects in the world (cf. Col 1:24), **neither the Church nor Mary can replace or perfect the redemptive work of the incarnate Son of God, which was perfect and needs no additions**. > > 22. Given the necessity of explaining Mary’s subordinate role to Christ in the work of Redemption, **it is always inappropriate to use the title “Co-redemptrix” to define Mary’s cooperation**. > This title risks obscuring Christ’s unique salvific mediation and **can therefore create confusion and an imbalance in the harmony of the truths of the Christian faith**, for “there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). > When an expression requires many, repeated explanations to prevent it from straying from a correct meaning, **it does not serve the faith of the People of God and becomes unhelpful**. > In this case, the expression “Co-redemptrix” does not help extol Mary as the first and foremost collaborator in the work of Redemption and grace, for **it carries the risk of eclipsing the exclusive role of Jesus Christ** — the Son of God made man for our salvation, who was the only one capable of offering the Father a sacrifice of infinite value — which would not be a true honor to his Mother. > Indeed, as the “handmaid of the Lord” (Lk 1:38), Mary directs us to Christ and asks us to “do whatever he tells you” (Jn 2:5). > *Mediatrix* > > 24. **The biblical statement about Christ’s exclusive mediation is conclusive.** > Christ is the only Mediator, “for there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all” (1 Tim 2:5-6). > The Church has clarified this unique place of Christ in light of the fact that he is the eternal and infinite Son of God, hypostatically united with the humanity he assumed. > This is exclusive to Christ’s humanity, and the consequences that derive from it can only be properly applied to him. > In this precise sense, the Incarnate Word’s role is exclusive and unique. > Given this clarity in the revealed Word of God, special prudence is required when applying the term “Mediatrix” to Mary. > In response to a tendency to broaden the scope of Mary’s cooperation through this title, it is helpful to specify the range of its value as well as its limits. > > 27. The Second Vatican Council’s terminology regarding **mediation primarily refers to Christ; it sometimes also refers to Mary, but in a clearly subordinate manner**. > In fact, the Council preferred to use a different terminology for her: one centered on cooperation or maternal assistance. > The Council’s teaching clearly formulates the perspective of Mary’s maternal intercession, using expressions such as “manifold intercession” and “maternal help.” > These two aspects together define the specific nature of Mary’s cooperation in Christ’s action through the Spirit. > Strictly speaking, **we cannot talk of any other mediation in grace apart from that of the incarnate Son of God**. > Therefore, we must always recall, and never obscure, the Christian conviction that “must be firmly believed as a constant element of the Church’s faith” regarding “the truth of Jesus Christ, Son of God, Lord and only Savior, who through the event of his incarnation, death, and resurrection has brought the history of salvation to fulfillment, and which has in him its fullness and center.” Given these clear statements about the inappropriate use of these titles (and condemnation of other aspects of their faith) what do Marian-centered groups see as their future? - Reducing their use of these titles and their extreme devotion to Mary to conform with Church doctrine and practice? - Separating from the Mother Church? - Being excommunicated? - Something else?
Ray Butterworth (13398 rep)
Feb 11, 2026, 04:08 PM • Last activity: Mar 3, 2026, 08:01 PM
3 votes
0 answers
58 views
What does the title “Sanctified Unity Ecclesiology” mean or stand for?
"Sanctified Unity Ecclesiology" was a phrase used in a couple of comments on Stack about seven years ago. One person asked what the O.P. meant by it. The response was that it is a name given for the pursuit of attaining Christian unity, while seeking to harmonize divergent views. In the OPs question...
"Sanctified Unity Ecclesiology" was a phrase used in a couple of comments on Stack about seven years ago. One person asked what the O.P. meant by it. The response was that it is a name given for the pursuit of attaining Christian unity, while seeking to harmonize divergent views. In the OPs question there were answers with premillennial and dispensational views (which has nothing to do with this question here). The OP was happy to consider both them and amillennial and non-dispensational views. Sanctified Unity Ecclesiology was said to be one of “various tools of interpretation for understanding the scriptures.” Searching on-line only brought up links and books on the doctrine of ecclesiology and the doctrine of sanctification. I found nothing about “the pursuit of attaining Christian unity while seeking to harmonise divergent views.” Can anyone explain what this, as a title, has sprung from, and how it is used as a tool to interpret the Bible, plus whether there are any particular denominations involved in this? There is a p.d.f. with this link from a newsletter giving a review of a book on Early Holiness-Pentecostalism 1880-1909 by Joseph L. Thomas, "Perfect Harmony". The review gives that very phrase. https://urbanatheologicalseminary.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/201409-The-Flame.pdf Thanks to Grateful Disciple for providing this.
Anne (46654 rep)
Sep 26, 2025, 03:35 PM • Last activity: Mar 3, 2026, 07:46 PM
5 votes
0 answers
118 views
Does the Catholic Church in Turkey celebrate the Feast of the Chair of St Peter at Antioch?
Prior to the changes to the [General Roman Calendar][1] in 1969, Catholics of the Roman Rite celebrated two Feasts of the [Chair of St. Peter][2]. The Feast of the Chair of St. Peter at Antioch was celebrated on February 22, and the Feast of the Chair of St Peter at Rome was celebrated on January 18...
Prior to the changes to the General Roman Calendar in 1969, Catholics of the Roman Rite celebrated two Feasts of the Chair of St. Peter . The Feast of the Chair of St. Peter at Antioch was celebrated on February 22, and the Feast of the Chair of St Peter at Rome was celebrated on January 18. Since 1970, the Catholic Church only celebrates the Chair of St. Peter at Rome on February 22. The Archdiocese of Malta celebrates the Shipwreck of St Paul on February 10. St Paul was shipwrecked at Malta around 60 AD. Since St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles established his first see at Antioch (Antakya, Turkey) , my question is this: Do the Catholic faithful of Turkey celebrate the Feast of the Chair of St. Peter at Antioch in accordance with the general celebration, or according to a local custom? If they do, what is the day of celebration?
Ken Graham (85094 rep)
Apr 12, 2016, 02:13 AM • Last activity: Mar 3, 2026, 07:05 PM
7 votes
0 answers
123 views
How is the Feast of the Shipwreck of St Paul celebrated in the domestic church, that is, within the Catholic family in Malta?
The Catholic Archdiocese of Malta celebrates the Feast of the Shipwreck of St Paul on February 10 each year. I would like to know if the domestic church has any traditional ways of celebrating this feast within the family at Malta?
The Catholic Archdiocese of Malta celebrates the Feast of the Shipwreck of St Paul on February 10 each year. I would like to know if the domestic church has any traditional ways of celebrating this feast within the family at Malta?
Ken Graham (85094 rep)
Mar 21, 2016, 11:43 PM • Last activity: Mar 3, 2026, 06:55 PM
7 votes
0 answers
373 views
What are the differences between the CRCNA position on infallibility and the ICBI position on inerrancy?
The [International Committee on Biblical Inerrancy][1] has set out two magisterial documents related to an understanding of inerrancy: the [Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy][2] (1978) and the [Chicago Statement on Biblical Hermeneutics][3] (1981). Earlier (1959), the Christian Reformed Church...
The International Committee on Biblical Inerrancy has set out two magisterial documents related to an understanding of inerrancy: the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy (1978) and the Chicago Statement on Biblical Hermeneutics (1981). Earlier (1959), the Christian Reformed Church of North America settled on a definition and understanding of Biblical infallibility . According to one member of the Council on Infallibility: > The committee discussed at some length the usefulness of the word *inerrant* to describe the Bible. We concluded that it is not the most felicitous term to express the unique character of the Scriptures. We agreed that *infallible* and *trustworthy* fit the nature of the Bible more appropriately. The rest of his article speaks in general terms on why they rejected the term, but I'm looking for more than that. I'd like to understand specifically what about the reliability and authority of the Bible the ICBI affirms and denies that the CRCNA would not affirm and deny, and vice-versa.
Mr. Bultitude (15735 rep)
Oct 12, 2016, 10:46 PM • Last activity: Mar 3, 2026, 06:52 PM
2 votes
1 answers
290 views
Does Reformed Theology teach that Old Testament saints were personally united to Christ?
Union with Christ is a central doctrine in Reformed Theology, and concerns the mystical union of the believer with Christ, by faith and by the Holy Spirit. In faith the Spirit unites us to Christ, and that union is the means by which Christ's saving work is applied to us, it is the power of regenera...
Union with Christ is a central doctrine in Reformed Theology, and concerns the mystical union of the believer with Christ, by faith and by the Holy Spirit. In faith the Spirit unites us to Christ, and that union is the means by which Christ's saving work is applied to us, it is the power of regeneration, and the basis on which the earthly church can and should be united. While there may be a sense in which all of the elect are united to Christ even before they come to faith, this Union is normally spoken about in reference to our temporal experience of God's grace: the unbelieving elect person is not yet united to Christ, but instead we are united to Christ when we are given new life, the power to have faith, and freed from sin, or in other words, saved. (Though there is a logical order, the *ordo salutis*, from our perspective we experience these things concurrently.) So here we come to my question: Does Reformed Theology teach that the Old Testament saints were personally united to Christ in this same way? Reformed theologians have traditionally taught Covenant Theology, where the various Biblical covenants, including the Old (Mosaic) and the New, are seen as aspects of the one eternal Covenant of Grace. So the Westminster Confession says: > WCF 7.6: Under the gospel, when Christ the substance was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed, are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper; which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity and less outward glory, yet in them it is held forth in more fullness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy, to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles; and is called the New Testament. **There are not, therefore, two covenants of grace differing in substance, but one and the same under various dispensations.** > > WCF 8.6: Although the work of redemption was not actually wrought by Christ till after his incarnation, yet **the virtue, efficacy, and benefits thereof were communicated into the elect, in all ages successively from the beginning of the world**, in and by those promises, types, and sacrifices wherein he was revealed, and signified to be the seed of the woman, which should bruise the serpent's head, and the Lamb slain from the beginning of the world, being yesterday and today the same and for ever. These paragraphs would seem to indicate that yes, the OT saints were united to Christ in the same way as NT Christians are. But it's not explicit, and there are some factors which would argue against it. First is that at Pentecost there seems to have been a fundamental change of state for the disciples whom the Holy Spirit came upon. Before that moment Jesus's disciples had faith, and the faith of the Christian is the same faith as that of Abraham (Romans 4:16). But the indwelling presence of the Spirit seems like something new; indeed Peter in Acts 2:16-21 says that the Spirit's coming upon them is the fulfilment of Joel 2:28-32, this "pouring out" of the Spirit being something new from the perspective of the OT prophets. When Paul describes the blessings of Israel in Romans 9:4-5 the Spirit is not one of them. A second factor is that the NT consistently describes the Spirit's indwelling as permanent. Several verses describe the Spirit as our guarantee of the rest of God's blessings (2 Cor 1:22, 2 Cor 5:5, Eph 1:13-14). In contrast the OT often speaks of the Spirit departing from someone or being taken from them (Judges 16:20, 1 Sam 16:14, Ps 51:11, Is 59:21), and many times when the Spirit comes to someone (Judges 3:10, 6:34, Ezek 2:2), it comes to someone we would most naturally describe as already having faith. Now there are many ways those verses are understood, but I've often heard it said (though not necessarily by Reformed teachers) that the indwelling of saints in the OT was only temporary, instead of the permanent indwelling Christians receive. So how does Reformed Theology understand the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Old Testament believer, and whether those believers should best be described as being personally united to Christ? ---------------- It is conceivable that Reformed Baptists may have a different answer to Reformed Paedobaptists as many of them reject Covenant Theology and would not say that there was only one covenant that applied equally to Old and New Testament saints. If this is the case, a good answer would explain the position of both Reformed Baptists and Paedobaptists.
curiousdannii (22822 rep)
Mar 31, 2020, 02:43 AM • Last activity: Mar 3, 2026, 04:02 PM
13 votes
8 answers
90803 views
What is the difference between holiness and righteousness?
Both holiness and righteousness are used to describe God. Additionally, we as Christians are called to be holy and righteous as well. These are two distinct words, so they must have distinct meanings. So, my question is what distinguishes holiness from righteousness? > **You shall be holy to me, for...
Both holiness and righteousness are used to describe God. Additionally, we as Christians are called to be holy and righteous as well. These are two distinct words, so they must have distinct meanings. So, my question is what distinguishes holiness from righteousness? > **You shall be holy to me, for I the Lord am holy** and have separated you > from the peoples, that you should be mine. Leviticus 20:26 ESV > > 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your > former ignorance, 15 but as **he who called you is holy**, **you also be > holy** in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “**You shall be holy**, > for **I am holy**.” 1 Peter 1:14-16 ESV > > You are witnesses, and God also, how **holy and righteous** and blameless > was our conduct toward you believers. 1 Thessalonians 2:10 ESV > > But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have > heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 > to put off your old self,[f] which belongs to your former manner of > life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in > the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after > the likeness of God in true **righteousness and holiness.** Ephesians > 4:20-24 ESV
Sycamore (131 rep)
Dec 6, 2012, 02:49 AM • Last activity: Mar 3, 2026, 10:55 AM
1 votes
4 answers
465 views
Who is going to be King? YHWH or the Messiah?
> Zechariah 14 > > 17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not > go up to Jerusalem to worship **the King, YHWH of hosts,** there will be > no rain on them. > > Psalms 47 > > 2 For YHWH Most High is to be feared, **A great King over all the > earth**. 3 He subdues peoples...
> Zechariah 14 > > 17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not > go up to Jerusalem to worship **the King, YHWH of hosts,** there will be > no rain on them. > > Psalms 47 > > 2 For YHWH Most High is to be feared, **A great King over all the > earth**. 3 He subdues peoples under us And nations under our feet. 4 > He chooses our inheritance for us, The glory of Jacob whom He loves. > Selah. 5 God has ascended with a shout, YHWH, with the sound of a > trumpet. 6 Sing praises to God, sing praises; Sing praises **to our > King,** sing praises. 7 For **God is the King of all the earth;** Sing > praises with a skillful psalm. > > Psalms 47 > > 6 Sing praises to God, sing praises; Sing praises to **our King,** sing > praises. 7 For **God is the King of all the earth;** Sing praises with a > skillful psalm. In these verses above we can read that the Most High YHWH is King of the earth. Now the next verses shows that the Son, the Messiah Yahusha (Jesus/Yeshua) is going to be King. > Jeremiah 23 > > 5 “Behold, the days are coming, declares YHWH, when I will raise up > for David a righteous Branch, and **he shall reign as king** and deal > wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. > > Jeremiah 33 > > 16 In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will > dwell securely. And this is the name by which it will be called: ‘YHWH > is our righteousness.’ 17 “For thus says YHWH: David shall never lack > a man to **sit on the throne** of the house of Israel, > > Luke 1 > > 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you > have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your > womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be > great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God > will **give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign > over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no > end.”** As we can see, YHWH and His son Yahusha, are going to be King. Zecharia 14 refers to the promised Kingdom, the New Jerusalem, where YHWH is King. In Jeremiah 23 and 33 we can read that it is prophesied that a offspring of David is going to be King forever. Luke makes it clear that the son Yahusha is going to be that offspring that's going to sit on that throne as King forever. I do not believe in the tri-une God but do believe that YHWH and His Son are two different persons that do not share the same essence. From this perspective how must we look at the two kingships or what are the differences between them? And conscidering the everlasting kingships how must we interpret the part were the Son is going to give everything back to YHWH the Most High? In Luke for example, it stated really clear: "and of his kingdom there will be no end." > 1 Corinthians 15 > > 20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits > of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a > man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all > die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own > order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to > Christ. 24 Then comes the end, **when he delivers the kingdom to God the > Father** after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 > For **he must reign until** he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 > The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all > things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things > are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all > things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to > him, **then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all > things in subjection under him,** that God may be all in all.
Yadon (35 rep)
Mar 2, 2026, 09:56 AM • Last activity: Mar 3, 2026, 12:40 AM
1 votes
2 answers
164 views
According to Catholicism, are the pagans worshipers of the demons?
I just want to make sure that I understand this Catholic doctrine correctly or not. > They immolated to demons and not to God, to gods whom they did not know, who were new and recent arrivals, whom their fathers did not worship. – Deuteronomy 32:17 > But the things that the Gentiles immolate, they i...
I just want to make sure that I understand this Catholic doctrine correctly or not. > They immolated to demons and not to God, to gods whom they did not know, who were new and recent arrivals, whom their fathers did not worship. – Deuteronomy 32:17 > But the things that the Gentiles immolate, they immolate to demons, and not to God. And I do not want you to become partakers with demons. – 1 Corinthians 10:20 > Translation: (Catholic Public Domain Version)
karl (21 rep)
Feb 28, 2026, 12:55 PM • Last activity: Mar 2, 2026, 07:12 PM
3 votes
2 answers
245 views
On what evidence do (Saturday) Sabbatarians claim that the Apostle John (after the resurrection) kept the Sabbath?
While discussing whether the early church worshipped on the Saturday Sabbath a Sabbatarian (though not an SDA) asserted "We know that the Apostle John kept the (Saturday) Sabbath". My question is simple: How do any Sabbatarians "know" that John kept the Saturday Sabbath? What is the evidence?
While discussing whether the early church worshipped on the Saturday Sabbath a Sabbatarian (though not an SDA) asserted "We know that the Apostle John kept the (Saturday) Sabbath". My question is simple: How do any Sabbatarians "know" that John kept the Saturday Sabbath? What is the evidence?
Andrew Shanks (10468 rep)
Feb 25, 2026, 04:00 PM • Last activity: Mar 2, 2026, 02:15 PM
2 votes
3 answers
712 views
Does the Catholic's Trinity doctrine imply that the Unitarian God Multiplied into Three persons by Generating the other Two?
Does the cause-effect and begotten doctrine of the Eastern and Roman Catholic Church imply a division or multiplication in the nature of God? Unitarian God (Father) begets or caused into effect the second person- Son, who is subordinate to the Father. I am not using *Subordinate* in the sense of hav...
Does the cause-effect and begotten doctrine of the Eastern and Roman Catholic Church imply a division or multiplication in the nature of God? Unitarian God (Father) begets or caused into effect the second person- Son, who is subordinate to the Father. I am not using *Subordinate* in the sense of having a lesser divine and different substance/essence than the Father, but when they say "begotten not made", and that the Father alone is uncaused seem to imply that the Father begot the Son like a living creature begets its offspring. The offspring of God is not created from outside substance (like man from dust) but literally *derived, generated, caused or begotten* from the Father's divine nature, and he is equally divine. The Son is lesser in rank by the virtue of "generation", and the Spirit "proceeds". The words begotten and proceed are used, but seem to imply causation and generation. As though the Monarch, Unitarian God generated the (co-divine persons) Son and the Spirit, transforming into Multipersonal or the Trinity. The topics on "begotten, not made " and the "Monarchy of the Father " doctrine and the doctrines of "eternal generation", "eternal sonship" and "eternally begotten" generated this question. The language and these phrases in their creeds have resulted in confusion and debate; One might even say that such a literal generation of the divine persons undermines the doctrine of Immutability or the unchangeable nature of God. > Eastern Orthodox - Wiki > > According to the Eastern Orthodox view, the **Son is derived from the > Father who alone is without cause or origin.** This is not > subordinationism, and the same doctrine is asserted by western > theologians such as Augustine. In this view, the Son is co-eternal > with the Father or even in terms of the co-equal uncreated nature shared by the Father and Son. However, this view is sometimes > misunderstood as a form of subordinationism by Western Christians, who also asserts the same view even when not using the technical term i.e. > Monarchy of the Father. Western view is often viewed by the Eastern > Church as being close to Modalism. > > **Catholics** > > The Catholic Church also believes that the Son is > begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit is proceeding from the > Father through and from the Son. Catholic theologian John Hardon > wrote that subordinationism "denies that the second and third persons > are consubstantial with the Father. Therefore it denies their true divinity." Arius "made a formal heresy of" subordinationism. > > The International Theological Commission wrote that "many Christian > theologians borrowed from Hellenism the notion of a secondary god > (deuteros theos), or of an intermediate god, or even of a demiurge." > Subordinationism was "latent in some of the Apologists and in > Origen." The Son was, for Arius, in "an intermediate position > between the Father and the creatures." Nicaea I "defined that the Son > is consubstantial (*homoousios*) with the Father. In so doing, the > Church both repudiated the Arian compromise with Hellenism and deeply > altered the shape of Greek, especially Platonist and neo-Platonist, > metaphysics. In a manner of speaking, it demythicized Hellenism and > effected a Christian purification of it. In the act of dismissing the > notion of an intermediate being, the Church recognized only two modes > of being: uncreated (nonmade) and created."
Michael16 (2260 rep)
Aug 10, 2021, 10:14 AM • Last activity: Mar 2, 2026, 02:02 PM
0 votes
1 answers
143 views
Exorcism blessing of oil without holy water?
I read something recently and it reminded me of oil I asked a priest to bless. He read the rite word for word except that he did not sprinkle it with holy water. Is it still as efficacious? Thank you. God bless!
I read something recently and it reminded me of oil I asked a priest to bless. He read the rite word for word except that he did not sprinkle it with holy water. Is it still as efficacious? Thank you. God bless!
RR70 (9 rep)
Jun 19, 2025, 11:36 AM • Last activity: Mar 1, 2026, 04:05 PM
4 votes
1 answers
79 views
In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, when was it first formulated that there will be opportunity for marriage after death?
One doctrine that has been consistently taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that, if people had accepted the gospel but didn't have the opportunity in this life, they will still be saved and be able to receive all the blessings of the gospel. This general idea goes back to a...
One doctrine that has been consistently taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that, if people had accepted the gospel but didn't have the opportunity in this life, they will still be saved and be able to receive all the blessings of the gospel. This general idea goes back to at the latest Joseph Smith's vision of the celestial kingdom, where he was surprised to see his brother who died before the restoration of the church. D&C 137 > 5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my > brother Alvin, that has long since slept; > > 6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that > kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set > his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized > for the remission of sins. > > 7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died > without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they > had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom > of God; > > 8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who > would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that > kingdom; > > 9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, > according to the desire of their hearts. Now, the covenant of marriage is seen as vitally important to receive the highest blessings in the celestial kingdom (D&C 131 ). LDS perform proxy sealings in the temple for those who were married in life but not in the "new and everlasting covenant" that is eternal marriage. With regard to those that, for some reason or another, did not have the opportunity to marry in this life, no proxy marriages are (kind of obviously) performed. Yet it has been consistently taught since at least Lorenzo Snow that there will be opportunity for those eventually (in the millenium I suppose) to be married. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-9-sacred-family-relationships?lang=eng&id=p8#p8 > People who have no opportunity of marrying in this life, if they die > in the Lord, will have means furnished them by which they can secure > all the blessings necessary for persons in the married condition. The > Lord is merciful and kind, and He is not unjust. There is no injustice > in Him; yet we could scarcely look upon it as being just when a woman > or a man dies without having had the opportunity of marrying if it > could not be remedied in the other life. There would be injustice in > that, and we know that the Lord is not an unjust being. My sister > Eliza R. Snow, I believe, was just as good a woman as any Latter-day > Saint woman that ever lived, and she lived in an unmarried state until > she was beyond the condition of raising a family. … I cannot for one > moment imagine that she will lose a single thing on that account. It > will be made up to her in the other life, and she will have just as > great a kingdom as she would have had if she had had the opportunity > in this life of raising a family. (Quote from 1899, shortly after becoming president of the church in 1898) Was Lorenzo Snow the first to formulate the doctrine this way? Surely all the building blocks were already there even in Joseph Smith's time. Please correct me if I am wrong in this, but I assume none of the standard works go into this topic, so what we have here is an example of doctrine defined by "the modern-day prophets consistently taught it".
kutschkem (6389 rep)
Jan 30, 2026, 01:18 PM • Last activity: Mar 1, 2026, 03:02 PM
1 votes
1 answers
38 views
Regarding the 24 elders, what is the exegetical significance of preferring the reading τω θεω ημας over the reading τω θεω in Rev 5:9?
Most English translations in Rev 5:9 read something like "You purchased people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation." However, the Revelation ECM/CBGM data prefers the reading τῷ θεῷ ἡμᾶς over the reading of τῷ θεῷ (supported by only one Greek manuscript, 02). If...
Most English translations in Rev 5:9 read something like "You purchased people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation." However, the Revelation ECM/CBGM data prefers the reading τῷ θεῷ ἡμᾶς over the reading of τῷ θεῷ (supported by only one Greek manuscript, 02). If I am not mistaken, this would read something like "you purchased ***us*** for God by your blood...". My question(s) pertain to the significance of this change in reading. Who are the 24 elders? How does this reading change our understanding of their identity and function? Are they a part of the redeemed?
Elias Stanley (11 rep)
Jan 23, 2026, 06:28 PM • Last activity: Mar 1, 2026, 01:04 PM
-2 votes
8 answers
508 views
What is the Biblical Basis that God does not know every detail of the future?
What are the Biblical arguments used by those who teach that God does not know every detail of the future? I've seen three answers as to whether God knows every detail of the future. - 1. "God knows every detail of the future, including things that He hasn't planned". 2. "God knows every detail of t...
What are the Biblical arguments used by those who teach that God does not know every detail of the future? I've seen three answers as to whether God knows every detail of the future. - 1. "God knows every detail of the future, including things that He hasn't planned". 2. "God knows every detail of the future because He plans every detail of the future". 3. "While God could control every detail of the future, He does not, and sometimes things happen that He does not expect to happen". A complete response should discuss all three. **Conclusion** I accepted Kristopher's answer as it best answered the question. I awarded the 200 point bounty to Andrew Shanks as his answer and comments were most helpful in refining my answer, which was the goal of the bounty.
Hall Livingston (886 rep)
Nov 13, 2025, 03:36 AM • Last activity: Mar 1, 2026, 05:04 AM
6 votes
2 answers
1225 views
Which denominations believe that John 19 indicates that the crucifixion had the date of Nisan 14?
According to [Wikipedia][1]: > The modern Jewish Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread is seven days, starting with the sunset at the beginning of Nisan 15. and > According to some interpretations, the Gospel of John (e.g., 19:14, 19:31, 19:42) implies that Nisan 14 was the day that Jesus was cruci...
According to Wikipedia : > The modern Jewish Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread is seven days, starting with the sunset at the beginning of Nisan 15. and > According to some interpretations, the Gospel of John (e.g., 19:14, 19:31, 19:42) implies that Nisan 14 was the day that Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem. The article mentions that this was the first Easter controversy which petered out around the 4th century and that "Jehovah's Witnesses continue to celebrate the memorial of Christ's death on Nisan 14." Recently, an answer on Biblical Hermeneutics asserted that Jesus was crucified on Nisan 14. This indicates the interpretation is still supported in some modern traditions. Are there any denominations that interpret John 19 as placing the crucifixion on Nisan 14? Do the Jehovah's Witnesses base their memorial on John 19?
Jon Ericson (9796 rep)
Aug 14, 2012, 07:46 PM • Last activity: Mar 1, 2026, 12:37 AM
4 votes
4 answers
1276 views
Did Jesus possess complete knowledge of all human languages during his earthly ministry, or was his linguistic knowledge limited by his incarnation?
Christian theology affirms that Jesus Christ is fully divine and fully human. At the same time, Scripture describes real human limitations during his earthly life (e.g., growth in wisdom, learning, and dependence on ordinary means of communication). Given this, I am asking how Christian doctrine und...
Christian theology affirms that Jesus Christ is fully divine and fully human. At the same time, Scripture describes real human limitations during his earthly life (e.g., growth in wisdom, learning, and dependence on ordinary means of communication). Given this, I am asking how Christian doctrine understands Jesus’ knowledge of human languages during his earthly ministry. - Did Christ, by virtue of his divinity, possess complete knowledge of all human languages while incarnate? - Or did the incarnation (often discussed in terms of kenosis) entail genuine limitations such that his linguistic knowledge was exercised within normal human bounds? - How do major Christian traditions (e.g., Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) reconcile divine omniscience with apparent human limitations in this area?
So Few Against So Many (5886 rep)
Feb 23, 2026, 01:14 PM • Last activity: Feb 28, 2026, 05:37 PM
0 votes
2 answers
76 views
Is it biblical to say Philip was raptured in Acts 8:39–40 to support the rapture doctrine?
In Acts 8:39–40, Philip the Evangelist is suddenly taken away by the Spirit and appears in another location after baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch. Some Christians interpret this as an example of a “rapture.” Is it biblically safe to conclude that Philip was raptured? Can this passage legitimately be...
In Acts 8:39–40, Philip the Evangelist is suddenly taken away by the Spirit and appears in another location after baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch. Some Christians interpret this as an example of a “rapture.” Is it biblically safe to conclude that Philip was raptured? Can this passage legitimately be used as support for the doctrine of the rapture alongside the teachings of Jesus Christ about His return, or does the text describe a different kind of supernatural transport? I’m looking for interpretations from a biblical, theological, or historical perspective rather than personal opinion.
So Few Against So Many (5886 rep)
Feb 23, 2026, 09:23 AM • Last activity: Feb 28, 2026, 05:13 PM
6 votes
5 answers
150849 views
What is the difference between the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches?
What is the difference between the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches?
What is the difference between the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches?
AppleDevX (355 rep)
Nov 27, 2013, 04:29 PM • Last activity: Feb 28, 2026, 08:08 AM
-4 votes
2 answers
180 views
Four-In-One God and Four-In-One Body of Christ
1. **God is four-in-one.** 2. **The Body of Christ is four-in-one.** The Father, The Son, The Spirit and You. There is no participation in God's essence/Godhead, only in His energies/economy by believers. Are these **two statements** orthodox, heterodox, or heresy? #### Possible Biblical Basis: John...
1. **God is four-in-one.** 2. **The Body of Christ is four-in-one.** The Father, The Son, The Spirit and You. There is no participation in God's essence/Godhead, only in His energies/economy by believers. Are these **two statements** orthodox, heterodox, or heresy? #### Possible Biblical Basis: John 14:20 (NIV): > On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. John 14:23 (NIV): > Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. John 17:21 (NIV): > that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 1 Corinthians 6:19 (NIV): > Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; Ephesians 3:17 (NIV): > so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, Ephesians 4:4-6 (NIV): > 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. #### Arguments For: - https://conversantfaith.com/2025/06/12/four-in-one-witness-lee-and-trinitarian-ecclesiology/ : > "Witness Lee’s claim that the Body of Christ is “a four-in-one organic entity” belongs within this broad and venerable stream: a distinctive, but not discordant, contribution to the tradition of Trinitarian ecclesiology." - https://www.equip.org/articles/addressing-the-open-letters-concerns-on-the-nature-of-humanity-part-3-of-a-reassessment-of-the-local-church-movement-of-watchman-nee-and-witness-lee/ : > "On first blush a skeptic might legitimately ask, “How could believers not partake in the Godhead if they partake in God’s life and nature?” The answer, however, becomes clear when Lee is read in his own context and allowed to define his own terms. When Lee refers to the “processed God,” he is clearly speaking about the economic Trinity. It is this Trinity that becomes in a sense “four-in-one.” There is no change in the essential or ontological Trinity (what Lee is here calling the Godhead) with the deification of believers any more than there was a change in the ontological Trinity with the incarnation of Christ. According to the LC, in the outworking of God’s economy or plan of salvation, there is a process that includes progressive steps in which God the Father is embodied in the Son in incarnation, Christ is realized as the Spirit in resurrection, and ultimately the Triune God is expressed in the glorified church; but in His essential nature or Godhead, the Lord remains forever unchanged." #### Arguments Against: - https://normangeisler.com/a-response-to-cri-local-church/ : > "To illustrate the absurdity of the LC position, one final citation from Witness Lee is necessary. He wrote: “Because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one with the Body of Christ, we may say that the Triune God is now the ‘four-in-one’ God. These four are the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body. The Three of the Divine Trinity cannot be confused or separated, and the four-in-one also cannot be separated or confused.” (Lee , A Deeper Study, 203-204). No amount of hermeneutical gyrations can untangle this theological absurdity. Clearly, Lee does not hold the orthodox view of the Trinity which allows no creature or creatures to be one with the members of the Trinity in the same sense that the Body of Christ (the Church) is one with God. Defending such a view is both senseless and useless." - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/scotty-smith/trinity-no-4th-member/ : > "You are the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, and everything in between. Hallelujah, many times over. As our God, you are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—perfect Trinity. And you’re not looking to turn a Trio into a Quartet. We matter, but only you are the point."
Dil Cab (11 rep)
Feb 21, 2026, 04:45 AM • Last activity: Feb 28, 2026, 03:51 AM
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